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Visit Dennis P. McCann's column >>

DENNIS P. MCCANN

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Türkiye'deki Amerikalı Sanatçı
Articles Posted: 74  Links Seeded: 791
Member Since: 3/2006  Last Seen: 3/26/2011

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Put a Seed Newsvine link on your own site

Updated: Gaza Street Market: Graphic Content.

Seeded on Sat Jan 3, 2009 4:23 PM EST
Read ArticleArticle Source: muslimtv.magnify.net
world-news, israel, gaza, hamas, graphic, civilians, street-market
Seeded by Dennis P. McCann
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WARNING; EXTREMELY GRAPHIC CONTENT

Do not watch this if you are sensitive to graphic footage of violence
---------------------

Correction/Update: This video was not shot two days ago, as indicated by the link. It is actually from 2005, and is not the result of an IDF attack, but rather a Hamas rally gone wrong. Kudos to Newsviner Yaakov for finding the original source, and my apologies for not vetting my sources more thoroughly.

DPM

  • Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.

Published to:

  • Dennis P. McCann's Column, All of Newsvine
  • Groups: Anti-War, Ethnoscapes, Mid-East Vine, The War Room, Worldviews
  • Regions: none
  • Public Discussion (443)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2 3
Dennis P. McCannRestored

While we sit in our comfortable homes, debating whether or not Israeli actions are justified, this is the reality on the ground in Gaza. Please don't watch this if you are at all sensitive to graphic violence.

The CoH will be enforced.

  • 20 votes
#1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 4:28 PM EST
Wild RabbitDeleted
Dennis P. McCannRestored

Your comments are very general. I take it you didn't look at the video?

  • 16 votes
#1.2 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 5:36 PM EST
Wheel

Rabbit,

sounds to me like you just want to spam the board without taking time to look the video over.

  • 16 votes
#1.3 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 5:51 PM EST
Karl_

I cannot escape the feeling that there are some professional Spin Doctors that drop by on seeds like this, based on their titles - or contents (...search tools can tell...) - and semi-blindly drop ready-made propaganda in the discussion. I have seen these types of generic interventions too often to believe otherwise.

  • 20 votes
#1.4 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 5:56 PM EST
Dennis P. McCannRestored

I cannot escape the feeling that there are some professional Spin Doctors that drop by on seeds like this,

Trust your feelings, young Jedi.

  • 22 votes
#1.5 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 6:01 PM EST
Wheel

Karl,

I cannot escape the feeling that there are some professional Spin Doctors that drop by on seeds like this, based on their titles - or contents (...search tools can tell...) - and semi-blindly drop ready-made propaganda in the discussion. I have seen these types of generic interventions too often to believe otherwise.

You are correct, there are 2, that I suspect are, if not pro's, then semi-pro. And some are just talented amateurs. There are a couple that are just nuts,you'll see more of them too.

  • 14 votes
#1.6 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 6:18 PM EST
JaRagga

One thing, I did notice and I have to bring it up is that there were definitely militants in among the wounded and dead in the video.  This is the problem with Hamas' approach, they're using the civilians as shields, the civilians have no where to hide, and the Israelis are hitting Hamas but too many civilians are going up with them.  Civilian deaths will only generate a new generation of terrorists for Israel to deal with.

Gaza is so packed there is no chance that civilian casualties are not going to climb through the roof.  The international community is scared to death of standing up to Israel in the matter but it is the Israelis and Hamas both that have put the civilians in the line of fire.  The level of violence Israel is putting on Gaza is disproportionate to say the least.

Packed like sardines with no way out, Israel is shooting fish in a barrel and they know it.

  • 15 votes
#1.7 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 6:48 PM EST
IAmEverydayPeople

The actions of the other do not justify the actions of either Hamas or Israel.

  • 9 votes
#1.8 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 7:49 PM EST
TBone

Has Barak made a statement on this? A serious problem exists when condemning this horrible, horrible event. One is simultaneously labeled anti-Semitic and supportive of terrorism.

  • 5 votes
#1.9 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 9:55 PM EST
Achilles1

The  2 year long-term Israeli blockade of Gaza, looks exactly like a mass Concentration Camp. 

And Israel's disproportionate use of force makes the Israelis look more & more like Nazi concentration camp guards, each day that passes by:  500 Gazans killed for just 4 Israelis.

The Israelis are looking indistinguishable from the selfrighteous monsters who held sway in central Europe 70 years ago.

  • 10 votes
#1.10 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 11:17 PM EST
Not by might, nor power

The article should be entitled:  The Fruit of Hamas' Self Destructive Stupidity.

  • 13 votes
#1.11 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 11:42 PM EST
DanielC78

All that I can say is, to those who have never seen war close up, here is a decent snapshot.  Loss of life is a horrendous, but unfortunate consequence of these battles.  I'm not even going to try to start with the blame game, but I certainly hope that these conflicts come to a swift end.

  • 7 votes
#1.12 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 6:36 AM EST
OK109

After seeing the video, I was amazed how many of the respondents happened to be carrying those little green Hamas flags around. Also was amazed at how those with  the blood could easily turn to face the camera. Seeing as how the Palastinians voted in this radical muslim group, and have done little more than support them rather then get them out, I would say they made thier bed and are getting what they asked for. Funny how Hamas never thought of building schools or irrigating fields with the support they got from Iran. No, lets bomb our neighbors instead.

  • 4 votes
#1.13 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 10:08 AM EST
KLconsiders

Israel runs the show...................blue plates to identify Palestinians

closed Palestinians schools for three years.

NO FOOD IN.

closed streets on which businesses are run..........lost income.

per our own Isrealigirl.............makes phone calls to empty Palestinian homes before bombing them.

Israel has the power and control.  If they thought they could kill all of the residents of Gaza without incurring the disdain of nations they would. Film crew went into Palestine (when Israel would allow it) and if you would like to see something besides blood and murder...............take a look

http://icyn22ro.newsvine.com/_news/2009/01/03/2271005-people-and-the-land-the-story-of-a-people-under-occupation

and if you find the "identity thing" at all reminiscent, maybe we could get all Americans born in Texas to wear a green arm band, and green plates on their cars so everyone knows who you are..............and if anyone else, say Cheney's constituents, would like to join Texans maybe we could do that? Only orange.  Get the drift! Who ever the powerful identify as the enemy can then control them until their beaten. Yeah.........control until they are beaten............and the slower it happens the fewer who decry the action.

Those Israel teenagers in an Israel jail have more courage then I even imagined.

  • 6 votes
#1.14 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 10:30 AM EST
Wild RabbitDeleted
TBone

Even if the video were faked it would be representative of the horror of the known casualties. Shame on anyone for even going there.

  • 1 vote
#1.16 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 11:11 AM EST
KLconsiders

Wild Hare, your work is up to par as usual..................however, the seed is about the vid.........and yet again, you avoid anything that is not of your limited view, how does one actually graduate ones understanding of the world with such a limited view?

just curious. and, if you find nothing there that meets your approval, what is your point in joining in the discussion about that very vid.? your statement speaks, and there is nothing left to keep you here.

unless you have another purpose?

  • 6 votes
#1.17 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 11:24 AM EST
Wild RabbitDeleted
OK109

Please refer to my earlier comment. Also to everyone, refer to this

After you have reviewed this, only then can we understand the errors in this whole process. Actually you can go so far as to blame the British, but lets get serious. Until both sides can agree to equlaties of land ownership, and refuse to allow themselves to be sucked in by radical idealism on BOTH SIDES, this conflict will continue to go on.

  • 3 votes
#1.19 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 12:20 PM EST
KLconsiders

Gaza Strip........................now a 'prison' or better a holding tank while Israeli Army fires inside at trapped 'contents'.

Dispicable.

  • 3 votes
#1.20 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 1:01 PM EST
Wild RabbitDeleted
Raat ki Raani

I wonder if would be at this situation if instead of Hamas there was Gandhi in charge of Gaza

Gandhi was very closely involved in the peace movement in Israel founded by Jews - Gush Shalom. But Gandhi made an ill thought-through comment last year, was hounded out and silenced by those who do not wish to see peace in Israel. Arun Gandhi is MK Gandhi's grandson.

  • 5 votes
#1.22 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 3:33 PM EST
VMS

I posted this on Yaakov's site, as well, Mr.McCann.  Thank you for clearing this up.

I have just spent the last couple of hours, researching how other news organizations handle issues where the underlying source is false.  It has been interesting.  Since that time, I have seen how the parties have, in a sense, resolved the issues.  My first response was to delete.  But then I couldn't find an instance where a credible news organization deleted the false story.  Instead, they did one of two things:  1) the posted a correction on the inside cover of their news publication (or in this case, on a corrections page that no one looked at on the web); or 2) they constantly updated the story so that the truth became evident.  

Obviously, in my opinion, a constant update is better, so that the original story does not continue to get improperly seeded and contains the proper warnings.

I must say that Yaakov has done a great service for Newsviners.  And he has taken a story, which originally looked very negative about the Israeli army's approach to Palestinian civilians and turned it on its head.  

And how did Mr. McCann react?  Well, as I said earlier, I disagreed with him and was ready to write a comment telling him how I humbly disagreed.  Especially with the first premise, which was that Mr. McCann didn't want to take away from the Newsviner's comments, which he correctly said were legitimate.  But I thought, "They are based upon a false premise.  We were thinking that Israeli soldiers committed these atrocities, when, in fact, it was Hamas."  I was ready to say that this needed to be deleted because it was highly biased and served no major purpose for informing other readers.

And I stopped as I continued to do my research.  

Then I come back to Mr. McCann's final comment, which summed it up for me.  Mr. McCann took a story, which originally was negative to the Israelis.  And through Mr. Yakov's vetting, Mr. McCann turned it into a story of Hamas doing damage to its own people.  

Mr. McCann stated:

What was falsified were the dates and the cause of that destruction. It was actually from 2005, not 2009, and was caused by an exploding truck at a Hamas rally, not an Israeli airstrike.

I would also say that not only does it belong on Newsvine, it has value as it shows the destruction caused by Hamas terrorism, on the people of Gaza.

Me? I'm still just as horrified by it as I was, but at least now I can place the blame where it belongs. And all those people are still just as dead.

Mr. McCann took a false story and turned it into what it really was:  a true story about innocents being killed -- not by Israel but by Hamas.

That, in and of itself, is a story.  And my final conclusion is that the story, with its corrections, should stand.

  • 9 votes
#1.23 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 7:33 PM EST
JaRagga

Well done VMS and I completely agree.

  • 3 votes
#1.24 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 7:53 PM EST
Wizeguy

Mr. McCann took a false story and turned it into what it really was:  a true story about innocents being killed -- not by Israel but by Hamas.

I asked Dennis about this yesterday. Thread #4.10 I noticed that the people were all in short sleeves and stated that it's cold there now.

    #1.25 - Mon Jan 5, 2009 5:42 AM EST
    Dennis P. McCannRestored

    The short sleeves weren't unrealistic, though. It was 66 degrees in Askelon yesterday. Ashkelon is just north of Gaza. Also, it's warm on the eastern Mediterranean coast, much warmer than it is inland.

    • 4 votes
    #1.26 - Mon Jan 5, 2009 6:48 AM EST
    CharlieSeattleDeleted
    Red Wolf

    CharlieSeattle, weren't you recently suspended for constantly violating the CoH? Multiple accounts are in violation of the user agreement.

    • 7 votes
    #1.28 - Mon Jan 5, 2009 10:27 PM EST
    Karl_

    How can anyone remain silent and still retain their humanity in the face of such atrocities???

    HELP!!! HELP FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!!!!!!

    • 17 votes
    #2 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 4:49 PM EST
    Dennis P. McCannRestored

    This is truly horrible, but people always seem to find ways to justify the truly horrible.

    • 14 votes
    #2.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 5:02 PM EST
    Xerxes-727854

    What the video does not show is that Hamas has been launching rockets at Israel for, well, the last few years.  War is hell and Hamas is to blame for this!

    • 8 votes
    #2.2 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 5:56 PM EST
    Karl_

    Xerxes-727854,

    4 victims on the occupier side versus over 500 on the besieged side? This is an insult to my intelligence.

    • 17 votes
    #2.3 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 6:00 PM EST
    Xanthiana

    What the video does not show is that Hamas has been launching rockets at Israel for, well, the last few years.  War is hell and Hamas is to blame for this!

    One could argue that these rockets were retaliation for continuous incursions into Gaza by the IDF.

    • 12 votes
    #2.4 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 6:02 PM EST
    Dennis P. McCannRestored

    xerxes, how about a comment on what the video does show?

    • 10 votes
    #2.5 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 6:02 PM EST
    Eric AlbertDeleted
    rsather139

    So wait, what you're saying Eric is the fact that Hamas has been attacking Israel for over 2 years is irrelevant, because the crimes of Israel are worse. Despite the fact that civilians (including children) have been killed by these rockets?

    Gotta love that logic, so people who have a technological disadvantage always have the moral high ground over their opponents?

    • 2 votes
    #2.7 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 3:34 AM EST
    winsomecowboy

    So wait, what you're saying Eric is the fact that Hamas has been attacking Israel for over 2 years is irrelevant, because the crimes of Israel are worse. Despite the fact that civilians (including children) have been killed by these rockets?

    Gotta love that logic

    How are you at what we adults call "adding up"?

    run away and count your dead kiddies , then count the other sides.

    get back to us after you've studied logic a bit further.

    • 11 votes
    #2.8 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 4:17 AM EST
    Writing Athena

    Not that I think the current action against Gaza is particularly fantastic, but...

    justice in war is, believe it or not, not a matter of math. you don't tally the losses on each side and declare the side with fewer civilian losses the aggressor.

    if you've studied "just war" theory a bit further, you will understand this.

    • 5 votes
    #2.9 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 8:29 AM EST
    Karl_

    Writing Athena,

     Not that I think the current action against Gaza is particularly fantastic, but... 
     justice in war is, believe it or not, not a matter of math.... 

     if you've studied "just war" theory a bit further, you will understand this. 

    Perhaps you have studied too much. One's humanity may end up being lost, wedged between two theories.

    • 4 votes
    #2.10 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 8:41 AM EST
    Wheel

    Gotta love that logic, so people who have a technological disadvantage always have the moral high ground over their opponents?

    That's a rather idiotic statement. No one in this conflict has the moral high ground. They are all evil, but only the Israelis are using state of the art war machines on unarmed civilians in a close urban setting. As Machiavelli said: "Among other evils which being unarmed brings you, it causes you to be despised."

    • 7 votes
    #2.11 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 9:23 AM EST
    Writing Athena

    CNN just reported that UN and Palestinian sources say that of the 400+ deaths so far, 25% are civilian. Did Israel just get "lucky" and manage to hit non-civilians (i.e., armed militants) most of the time?

    Or is Israel perhaps targeting militants who use civilians as human shields?

    If Israel were interested in slaughtering unarmed civilians, one day of carpet-bombing in Gaza would pretty much do it. Instead, their aim seems to be to debilitate Hamas while killing as few civilians as possible.

    • 4 votes
    #2.12 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 9:33 AM EST
    KLconsiders

    Isreal has an ally..........that would be U.S.

    Isreal has 77 billion in aid.

    isreal has great big military we helped to arm with all the latest toys.

    Isreal has mastered the "poor" me thing (and actually I thought americans really hated that, I mean, the whole "cut of the poor" mentality here and all)

    Palestine..............has trapped, hungry, dying, population.  and rockets.

    yeah............those nasty old rockets they have been using as Isreal has consistantly bagged and tagged these people.  Who do you think will be next to get "kicked" out of their homes and lives because someone well financed comes along and wants what is under them?

    • 8 votes
    #2.13 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 9:53 AM EST
    JaRagga

    Writing Athena-

    CNN just reported that UN and Palestinian sources say that of the 400+ deaths so far, 25% are civilian

    Do you have a link to that story or the video, because I can't find those figures at CNN?

    • 3 votes
    #2.14 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 10:18 AM EST
    monet-697127

      Writing Athena         "just war" theory

    Sounds like 2 + 2 = 5.

    • 2 votes
    #2.15 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 10:24 AM EST
    Writing Athena

    JaRagga --

    Was on CNN TV this morning -- probably CNN International. I was flicking between the 2 CNNS, BBC, BBC America, and Fox.

    • 3 votes
    #2.16 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 1:07 PM EST
    Joe Esposito

    from reading comments, I dont' think that a lot of the people blaming Hamas for this war know that Israel illegally occupies Palestine.

    This isn't like Mexico firing rockets into Texas or Arizona and having us retaliate. It's be like us taking control of mexico through force and not allowing them to be a country in their own right. Then when they get pissed at us and try to fight back for their freedom, we build a wall to keep them in. Then, despite what the UN says, we start to move in and take their houses and land. And if they still keep fighting back (the nerve of them!), we'll cut off all humanitarian aid.  We'll label them terrorists (it's a fine line between terrorist and freedom fighter, isn't it?).  Then let's build highways throughout Mexico for americans ONLY to connect our new houses.  If anyone speaks out against us, we'll cite 9/11 and call them un-patriotic. 

    If my city (Buffalo, NY) was taken by force and became occupied territory, I would fight back. It wouldn't be for my elected government, but for my self, my family and my pride as a living human being.  

    • 7 votes
    #2.17 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 1:30 PM EST
    Writing Athena

    From MSNBC:

    The new deaths brought the death toll in the Gaza Strip to more than 500 since Dec. 27. Palestinian and U.N. officials say at least 100 civilians are among the dead.

    You can find the whole article here: Israeli forces bisect Gaza, surround biggest city

    So, while 20% civilian casualties is still awfully high, it's better than 25% or -- God forbid -- 50%.

    Strategically, tactically, and ethically, Israel's action in Gaza is probably not the best choice. However, it is deceptive and disingenuous to accuse Israel of "targeting civilians." They're targeting Hamas, as the Palestinian authority's own numbers clearly indicate.

    • 5 votes
    #2.18 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 1:38 PM EST
    JaRagga

    Thank you Writing Athena, but after reading the article I still don't see any breakdown of the numbers.  Perhaps it's been updated to remove that information?  I see another spot where it's talking about the ground incursion and 31 civilians killed but not what you listed.

    Ah well, fog of war, such an accurate thing to say.  It'll be likely be some time before the mist clears enough to tell what really is happening.

    • 5 votes
    #2.19 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 4:13 PM EST
    Xanthiana

    So sorry to see the numerous reports about recent events. So sad to think here we enjoyed the holiday season while the Gazans have to struggle to live at all.

    • 14 votes
    Reply#3 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 5:13 PM EST
    alkimija

    Video footage extremely poor. I can't tell what I'm looking at most of the time. When did this happen?

    • 4 votes
    #4 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 5:51 PM EST
    Dennis P. McCannRestored

    Yesterday.

    I can't tell what I'm looking at most of the time.

    Unfortunately, I can.

    • 15 votes
    #4.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 5:53 PM EST
    Dennis M Wright

    Well, let's make this suffering worth it.  By ensuring Hamas are crippled once and for all.  Don't let this end in another unstable truce that will allow terrorism to go on and set up a repeat of this in another few weeks or months.

    This is war and war is terrible.  It is worse when one side (Hamas) goes to lengths to ensure they cannot be attacked without civilian casualties.  The fact that they do that is a war crime, because they are causing civilians to be at the locations of legitimate military targets.

    It is awful, but this action is necessary.  The extent of civilian casualties would have been lower if Hamas were not illegally using human shields, but the responsibility is entirely theirs.  Israel is entitled to defend its civilians whether Hamas use human shields or not.

    • 8 votes
    #4.2 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 6:04 PM EST
    alkimija

    Well, unfortunately I couldn't discern much... it sounded terrible though.

    I can't find anything on Google News about an Israeli air strike on a Gaza market. ??

    Strangely I did find an account saying that some agricultural fields were hit. ??

    • 6 votes
    #4.3 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 6:07 PM EST
    Dennis P. McCannRestored

    I can't find anything on Google News about an Israeli air strike on a Gaza market. ??

    Are you surprised?

    • 15 votes
    #4.4 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 6:29 PM EST
    alkimija

    Are you surprised?

    Yes, I am surprised. The world press thrives on bad news. Reporters would be all over an incident such as this one like white on rice.

    The Muslim world's press should certainly have been all over such a report. Yet the only source I can find that has made this report is... the one that you've seeded. ??

    • 4 votes
    #4.5 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 11:29 PM EST
    KLconsiders

    you will see what 77 billion dollars in aid will allow you to see.  you will hear what 77 billion dollars of american aid to Isreal wants you to hear.  If you are ok with that then look no more.......corporate media controls what you see, what you hear and thus what you know...........unless you continue to look for history that is given by all who are involved, not just those who win, and write the history.

    • 5 votes
    #4.6 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 1:16 AM EST
    alkimija

    I can't even find anything on this on Al Jazeera. ??

    • 3 votes
    #4.7 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 1:36 AM EST
    Peter Merel

    Well, let's make this suffering worth it. By ensuring Hamas are crippled once and for all. Don't let this end in another unstable truce that will allow terrorism to go on and set up a repeat of this in another few weeks or months.

    Hamas is just a name. These are people who have nothing to live for. So long as they continue to be ground beneath Israel's boot, so long as their parents, children, brothers and sisters are slaughtered en masse, they will hate their oppressors, organize - by any name - and strike back as best they are able.

    One day - perhaps not this generation, perhaps not the next, but eventually - one of them will acquire a weapon of mass destruction. And that will be the end of Israel. Its violence will return, and kill it.

    There is another way. It is the only way Israel will ever find peace. Israel must commence a program of adopting Palestinian orphans, extend the hand of friendship and hospitality to those it has sought to destroy, ask their forgiveness, set up schools to teach peace, compassion and tolerance, and learn those virtues itself.

    This may seem improbable, but it has succeeded before - in India and in South Africa. If Israel cannot reform its heart, its inhumanity and violence will create yet another generation of terrorists. And one day one of them will succeed.

    • 7 votes
    #4.8 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 4:54 AM EST
    Raat ki Raani

    If Israel cannot reform its heart, its inhumanity and violence will create yet another generation of terrorists. 

    About a year ago, that was more or less what Arun Gandhi, grandson of the Mahatma, was actually saying in Palestine in a Gush Shalom Peace March. But the focus of his message was deliberately shifted to another element that was poorly worded, he was ostracized and labelled a bigot (including many here working the Zionist propaganda machine on Newsvine) and totally silenced, his reputation in tatters.

    Those that keep reminding Israel that there is another way, including so many Jews in and out of Israel, simply meet a dead end. And the terrorists from all sides of the conflict are the only ones that win. While innocent humans on all sides continue to be lambs to the slaughter.

    • 8 votes
    #4.9 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 6:27 AM EST
    Wizeguy

    Dennis I have a bit of confusion about this happening yesterday. What was the temperature in Gaza yesterday. Is it not winter and these people are all in short sleeves except for the Jack Booted Thugs pushing people around (8:17 of the video). I do admit it was a horrible scene but it could have been a suicide bomb of another day or when that truck load of Hamas rockets exploded about two years ago.

    Anybody know what the temp was in Gaza yesterday?

    • 2 votes
    #4.10 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 7:22 AM EST
    Dennis P. McCannRestored

    I have no idea what the temp was in Gaza when this occurred, but right now, it's 64 degrees in Ashkelon at 3:35 PM.

    • 4 votes
    #4.11 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 8:37 AM EST
    alkimija

    The BBC seems to have some weather reporting for Gaza.

    After looking for any other source to corroborate the story and having failed to find any, I am strongly of the opinion that the video is suspect.

    • 2 votes
    #4.12 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 2:25 PM EST
    JaRagga

    5 degrees Celsius = about 41 degrees Fahrenheit.  I rarely wear more than a tee-shirt in such temperatures myself, but you'll see people wearing anything from a tee-shirt to a large coat where I live when it's that temperature.

    Oh and converting from Celsius to Fahrenheit is pretty easy.  Just take 1.8 multiply by the degrees in Celsius then add 32.  So 1.8 x 5 (degrees in Celsius) + 32 = 41 degrees Fahrenheit.

    • 1 vote
    #4.13 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 2:43 PM EST
    alkimija

    Temperature really doesn't mean anything. I've seen people wearing t-shirts and shorts here in Canada at -20C. Freaks.

    btw - this video has just been discredited.

    • 3 votes
    #4.14 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 2:47 PM EST
    JaRagga

    I have to agree the video was old news used to garner sympathy and is propaganda.  I admit it worked on me to a degree but I tend to believe both sides are religious nuts personally.  I'd been trying to find corroboration of this video since yesterday glad it's not what it appears to be but that doesn't mean Israelis are not killing innocents in the assault. 

    We have to remind ourselves that NOTHING and I mean NOTHING, gets in or out of Gaza without Israel's blessing and that goes for main stream news and/or video.  We really don't have a good idea about what's going on in Gaza in reality and we'll get what news we do get through Israeli filters until someone can smuggle out other details.

    • 3 votes
    #4.15 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 3:54 PM EST
    alkimija

    The title itself should be modified to convey the fact that this video has been discredited. Otherwise folks might just watch the video without reading the tiny disclaimer and still believe it's real news.

    • 2 votes
    #4.16 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 4:15 PM EST
    Dennis P. McCannRestored

    The title was the first thing I modified. Then I added a correction/update to the synopsis. Then I responded to Dennis Wright below. Then I added a comment at the bottom of this thread. Then I went and posted on Yaakov's thread.

    Shall I now bleed for you?

    • 5 votes
    #4.17 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 4:20 PM EST
    alkimija

    You should modify the title to reflect the fact that the video isn't that of an Israeli attack on a Gaza marketplace but rather an incident in which a Hamas truck blew up at a Hamas rally.

    Otherwise you're still promoting the video incorrectly, and worse - deliberately so.

    • 2 votes
    #4.18 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 4:43 PM EST
    Dennis P. McCannRestored

    The title says nothing about Israel now, and it clearly indicates that it has been updated. The synopsis never did say anything about Israel, as the original synopsis was this:

    WARNING; EXTREMELY GRAPHIC CONTENT

    Do not watch this if you are sensitive to graphic footage of violence

    Your other concerns have been addressed in the updated synopsis, and in both this and Yaakov's thread.

    Feel free to address any further concerns to the staff.



    • 5 votes
    #4.19 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 4:50 PM EST
    Xerxes-727854

    Dennis/Eric,

    What I would like to point out is that Hamas chooses to launch its rockets from the densely populated areas in the Gaza Strip where a retaliatory attack by the Israelis will sadly but surely cause civilian casualties.

    That said, go to Google Earth and see that there are still areas in the Gaza Strip where it is sparsely populated.  Hamas could obviously use farms from as launching areas for their Qassam rockets but cowards that they are, they would rather get their own civilian killed.  Then, they would broadcast the civilian casualties like the linked video and claim "genocide".

    I find it sad and tragic that these civilians had to suffer and die because their Hamas government is too cowardly to fight the Israelis on a mano-a-mano battle without civilian human shields.

    Now, your turn.  Please answer all my comments above coherently and without, in the words of Eric Albert,  "repeating the same irrelevant facts".

    And, Eric Albert, please explain the "issue of OCCUPATION, APARTHEID, AND WAR CRIMES" when giving Palestinians a state does not mean they now have the right to launch Qassam rockets and suicide bombers at another country, Israel. 

    "makes the rocket issue a non issue, an excuse for mass murder".  It is precisely the "rocket issue" that triggered this round of fighting.  Remove this "rocket issue" and "human suicide bomber issue" then Hamas will make dramatic steps to achieve peace.

    • 2 votes
    #4.20 - Mon Jan 5, 2009 11:05 AM EST
    Eric AlbertDeleted
    Askari

    Dennis, I truly appreciate you seeding this video link.  Hopefully, the discussion on this thread won't be about taking sides and who started what.  If anyone can imagine that happening to them with NO place to flee, perhaps that will spark some compassion.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Siding with governments instead of the innocent people on both sides who become "collateral damage" in all the grandstanding is insanity.  This is what happens when you put politicians in charge of the world.  The definition of politics is dealing with people in a manipulative way to gain leverage and power.  I'd say they're doing a bang-up job!

    Can all of us who are horrified by the content of this video pledge to do some "real world" activism around this conflict and so many other going on around the world?  If nothing else, we have to educate ourselves on how damaging our country's foreign policy is to so many countries and to the safety of our own citizens here and abroad. 

    I found 2 very good links for a broad perspective on this conflict.

    www.mideastweb.org

    www.ifamericansknew.org

    • 15 votes
    Reply#6 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 6:04 PM EST
    Dennis P. McCannRestored

    Siding with governments instead of the innocent people on both sides who become "collateral damage" in all the grandstanding is insanity.

    Truer words were never spoken.

    • 11 votes
    #6.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 6:10 PM EST
    DanielC78

    Askari, if I could vote you up more than once, that comment would be off the charts.

    • 2 votes
    #6.2 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 6:43 AM EST
    monet-697127

    The Israelis have not achieved their needed security, just more rage and hatred.

    The Palestinians  have not achieved their freedom and self-determination, just more rage and hatred. 

    Ask yourself who benefits from keeping these wars and conflicts going?

    • 2 votes
    #6.3 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 10:47 AM EST
    KLconsiders

    Maybe Americans will get the opportunity to empathize with being "held captive" just as Palestinians are trapped in this strip.

    One reacts as one must when one is cornered.  with rage.........but also with the desire to survive.

    U.S. and Israeli elites win.  Fewer useless eaters.  The conflict is in reducing the numbers of poor who do the work that makes the profits and in this is where the problem has now come to light. those who are almost comfortable will not do the work that poor do, as it can not sustain their lifestyle, so many have seen the light and now know that the middle class must be reduced and the poor (who already are accustomed to surviving and must be protected) must continue supplying the elite with cheap labor and services.

    Israel is in the process of garnering their land..........taking thier place, and will have to consider who will supply their largess when U.S. aid is cut due to economic conditions........but, is aid being cut and Ameircans keeping those needed resources?

    • 6 votes
    #6.4 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 11:05 AM EST
    CharlieSeattleDeleted
    Dennis P. McCannRestored

    Have you not been paying attention?

    When that fact came to light, I changed the title and synopsis, and left comments to that effect at the bottom of this thread. I also left comments on Yaakov's thread, and then we talked about it for a day and a half.

    Your 'discovery' is more than a bit late.

    • 5 votes
    #6.6 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 2:08 AM EST
    JaRagga

    Don't feed the trolls Dennis.

    • 4 votes
    #6.7 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 11:12 AM EST
    Dennis P. McCannRestored

    Yeah, I know. I've been in apology mode for two days now.

    • 3 votes
    #6.8 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 11:17 AM EST
    Ben Bleikamp

    All because of religion.  What a tragedy.

    • 1 vote
    Reply#7 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 6:19 PM EST
    Dennis P. McCannRestored

    No it isn't. Religion has very little, if anything, to do with this.

    When it comes down to it, it's nothing more than a real estate deal gone bad.

    • 16 votes
    #7.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 6:28 PM EST
    JaRagga

    On this I disagree with you Dennis.  Religion has a great deal to do with this mess, it's the religious indoctrination of the youth on both sides that helped to create the political situation we witness and it is that indoctrination of religion that perpetuates it.  Religion is a tool used by both sides to validate their positions of righteousness.

    • 8 votes
    #7.2 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 7:43 PM EST
    Kim-298921

    I said when we went into Iraq that every bomb we dropped created militants.  Militants who did not exist because of religion, but were born of grief and pain.

    A father, mother, son, daughter, sister, brother watching their loved one be blown to bits - who could blame that person for becoming a militant, seeking revenge?

    This is a bitter harvest that Israel is sowing. It sows the seeds of its own destruction.  I do not know how or when it will happen, but this vicious and indiscriminate killing of people is wrong.  As Hamas is wrong. 

    • 11 votes
    #7.3 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 12:30 AM EST
    Dennis P. McCannRestored

    Religion is a tool used by both sides to validate their positions of righteousness.

    Yes, exactly. The conflict is political, but both sides use religion as a tool. The basis of the conflict is not religious.

    • 9 votes
    #7.4 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 1:12 AM EST
    KLconsiders

    Palestinians are given blue license plates.  this is about Palestinian NOT being Jewish. Israeli Army has check points and stop anyone with a blue license plate.  they held an ambulance with a Palestinian in labor, she was held at the check point in her ambulance and the first baby died............she was transferred to an ambulance on the other side of the check point, the second baby died upon arrival at the hospital.  there are many people who are killed because they are Palestinian.............Israeli's are not hindered. Foreigners are not hindered.

    This is about land...................and who wants it.

    • 8 votes
    #7.5 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 1:22 AM EST
    JaRagga

    The conflict is political, but both sides use religion as a tool. The basis of the conflict is not religious.

    But many of the commoners, particularly on the Palestinian side do not see the difference between the political and the religious, to them it is religious and about seeing God.  Political ends can't win over suicide bombers, that is the realm of martyrs and martyrdom is the realm of the religious.  On the Israeli side, it is about their faith that they are righteous because god is on their side and supposedly always has been.  We just disagree a little and that's okay.  I do however firmly believe if the religious elements to this conflict could be separated from it, they would not be fighting.

    • 4 votes
    #7.6 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 10:27 AM EST
    KLconsiders

    this is about land.................

    remember the dancing Israelis?

    • 3 votes
    #7.7 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 10:34 AM EST
    Dennis P. McCannRestored

    I do however firmly believe if the religious elements to this conflict could be separated from it, they would not be fighting.

    Sure they would. They would still be fighting over borders, which is ultimately what this is all about. The Palestinians were pushed off the land, and they want it back. The Israelis aren't going to give it back, so they fight.

    Religion is a recruiting tool. It's a lot easier to get some unsophisticated, uneducated kid to die 'for god' than to explain how some UN resolution was violated years ago. But hey, all wars are like that. Religion, patriotism... nothing but tools the establishment uses to get kids to happily become cannon fodder.

    • 6 votes
    #7.8 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 10:35 AM EST
    JaRagga

    Well, as I said we just disagree.  It's a question of which came first the chicken or the egg.  We agree on what's important and that is the violence needs to stop.

    • 4 votes
    #7.9 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 11:01 AM EST
    Ben Bleikamp

    this is about land.................

    Yes, and that land is "holy land" that both groups want, right?  So how is that not religious?

    • 1 vote
    #7.10 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 3:49 PM EST
    Wild RabbitDeleted
    JaRagga

    not to quibble but wasn't Hamas elected by the Palestinian people during an Israeli supported democratic election that when Hamas won, Israel decided to reject the results (not saying they shouldn't have since Hamas won't agree to recognized Israel) when the Israeli backed Fatah lost?

    • 6 votes
    #7.12 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 5:51 PM EST
    Ben Bleikamp

    Wrong, HANAS is a group and a terrorist organization, Israel is a recognized democratic state, that has "that land". It is about religion for HAMAS and it is about survival for Israel.

    Well...that may or may not be true, but either way the land is something that both groups want because it has religious significance for them.  Whether each group is legitimate or not is not something I was discussing.

    Keep up the trolling though, Wild Rabbit, that will definitely do a lot to help your point.

    • 2 votes
    #7.13 - Mon Jan 5, 2009 1:53 AM EST
    onewomansopinion

    Where to begin?

    First, how terrible for the non-combatants. My heart goes out to you, and I hope you get the peace that you deserve.

    Second, why were there so many armed/masked men dressed in camo BDUs in a street market?

    Third, was that gunfire I heard in the background?

    Fourth, the majority of the footage seemed to focus on the efforts to rescue one man, also drressed in camo BDUs.

    Fifth, said footage would probably have been more clear and less pixellated if the person shooting the video had put down his AK-47 and used both hands for his camera/cell phone.

    • 2 votes
    #8 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 6:46 PM EST
    VMS

    I saw children, a lot of children.  

    • 13 votes
    #8.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 7:07 PM EST
    Karl_

    onewomansopinion,

    These people are in their own countries occupied by Israel. I have not paid attention to masks. But if I was a Palestinian over there, I would be masked too for fear of reprisals. They are home, but under Israeli occupation.

    • 11 votes
    #8.2 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 7:41 PM EST
    JaRagga

    Most Palestinians aren't "home", they were pushed off their land by Jewish settlers and then the walls went up keeping them from ever returning to the homes they built with their own hands.

    • 12 votes
    #8.3 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 7:44 PM EST
    Karl_

    JaRagga, thanks for the clarification.  It is worst than I thought.

    • 8 votes
    #8.4 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 7:52 PM EST
    DonkeyRidder

    If there was no religion all would be peaceful, another liberal progressive crock of waste.  It would be world wide crips and bloods.  What a goofy notion the areligious have.

    If the Palestinians want to live on the Jewish land, all they have to do is become Jews.  How much more simple could it get?

      #8.5 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 9:19 AM EST
      Dennis P. McCannRestored

      If the Palestinians want to live on the Jewish land, all they have to do is become Jews.  How much more simple could it get?

      Seriously?

      Hey, by that line of reasoning, if the Jews just become Muslims they'll have 1.5 billion new friends in the neighborhood!

      *cough*

      • 7 votes
      #8.6 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 9:24 AM EST
      DonkeyRidder

      But Jews becoming Muslim would just move them into one of the Muslim gang factions that fight themselves, like the Sunni and Shia, Hamas and Fatah and Hezbollah, or Iran and Iraq.  Or they might have to wear bomb vests and fly planes into buildings in the west.  Now if the Muslims became Jews, problem solved!!!

      *belch, fart*

      • 1 vote
      #8.7 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 10:02 AM EST
      Dennis P. McCannRestored

      They should all become Buddhist. Not just them...everybody.

      Buddhists are peaceful because it's really hards to fight in those long robes. They are comfortable, though.

      • 5 votes
      #8.8 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 10:09 AM EST
      Raat ki Raani

      Naah. That wouldn't work either. All them athiests would then protest that the Boodoos were suicide bombers in disguise and refuse to board a plane with them.

      But hey, they're damn comfy. Them long silky robes.

      • 3 votes
      #8.9 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 10:18 AM EST
      jdoyle

      Buddhists are peaceful

      Not always:

      Korean Buddhists have been quarreling, and periodically fighting, with each other for decades, although they claim to be against violence. The conflict has nothing to do with theology but reflects gangster influences and competition for the riches that come with control over the religion's biggest order in Korea.

      http://www.iht.com/articles/1998/12/05/seoul.t.php

      • 2 votes
      #8.10 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 10:19 AM EST
      Dennis P. McCannRestored

      OK, scratch that.

      How about FSM? Can we agree there? I mean, I've never heard of a terror attack with pasta as a motive or spaghetti as a weapon, and if it did happen, so what?

      Food fights can be fun.

      • 2 votes
      #8.11 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 10:30 AM EST
      DonkeyRidder

      Hey, everyone is catching on!  If we could confine our inevitable conflicts to food fights or mud wrestling, it would be such great fun.

        #8.12 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 10:48 AM EST
        Dennis P. McCannRestored

        OK, so FSM then?

        RAmen.

        • 2 votes
        #8.13 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 10:53 AM EST
        jdoyle

        FSM?

        ???

        • 1 vote
        #8.14 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 11:02 AM EST
        Dennis P. McCannRestored

        Yes. The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

        • 3 votes
        #8.15 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 11:10 AM EST
        JaRagga

        Buddhists are peaceful because it's really hards to fight in those long robes.

        Don't watch many Kung-Fu movies do ya Dennis ;)

        • 2 votes
        #8.16 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 11:16 AM EST
        Dennis P. McCannRestored

        Point taken.

        • 2 votes
        #8.17 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 11:19 AM EST
        jdoyle

        Yes. The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

        I understand now.

        You made the comments about Buddhist in an off hand manner, but it does bring out an important point. Its not the religion that is violent, it is the members.

        Other than old pagan religions which practiced human sacrifice, religion in itself is a positive thing. It is how it is perverted by people that makes it bad.

        • 4 votes
        #8.18 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 11:27 AM EST
        JaRagga

        .  .  .  . just pointing out not all old pagan religions practiced human sacrifice least some crazy start thinking their Wiccan neighbor is a baby killer.

        Well made point otherwise ;)

        • 2 votes
        #8.19 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 11:50 AM EST
        jdoyle

        Yes I should have said "some"; however I do get a kick out of some of those people who want to revive them thinking how wonderful some them were.

        • 2 votes
        #8.20 - Tue Jan 6, 2009 12:55 PM EST
        The Confessor

        If you don't feel this is about religion, please pull your head out of the sand. The fanatical and manaical settler movement is the root cause of this problem because all of the land belongs to them because God said so. The U.S. Mainstream media will not comment on this atrocity because as Eric Albert has said repeatedly, the properties of corporations who will not condemn Israel's collective punishment of the Gazans under any circumstances nor will they report on the atrocity seeded by Dennis P. McCann. I find it so ironic that Israel is now using the same tactics as the Nazi's. Yes history repeats itself.

        • 9 votes
        Reply#9 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 7:00 PM EST
        Karl_

        If you don't feel this is about religion, please pull your head out of the sand

        This massacre is so ugly that I almost believe you. A fight for religion is one of the very few causes that can bring such ugliness out of people. Remember the crusades and the inquisition?

        In this case, I think it is mainly a mixture of realestate & religion (Israel), strategic posturing for money(lobbying) oil and power(USA), guilt feelings for past injustices(Europe), and a few other underlying reasons here and there.

        • 8 votes
        #9.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 7:49 PM EST
        Karl_

        base on JaRagga's precision,

         Most Palestinians aren't "home", they were pushed off their land by Jewish settlers and then the walls went up keeping them from ever returning to the homes they built with their own hands.

        I have to rectify my comment above "I think it is mainly a mixture of realestate & religion (Israel), " to read "...of realestate & religion (Israel & Palestine),"

        • 7 votes
        #9.2 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 7:59 PM EST
        CharlieSeattleDeleted
        RoxyFLDeleted
        Jasonp162

        Yes, the content is horrific, it looks about the same when extremists blow themselves up in Israel and Iraq killing innocent children, we can't victimize Hamas, they have brought this on to themselves. war is a horrible and unfortunate event but when a people can only take so much and nothing else works, then it is again a unfortunate reality.  We sure did wave the stars and stripes when our forces stormed into Iraq because we wouldn't stand for someone attacking our civilians (9-11).  How quickly we forget.

        • 4 votes
        Reply#12 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 7:31 PM EST
        Askari

        Jason, I'm going to be gentle with you as I should.  PLEASE take the time to read something that is not government or corporate-controlled.  Your comments have no basis in reality or perspective because you haven't taken the time to properly inform yourself.

        We don't forget.  History gets re-written by those ashamed of their deeds.

        • 12 votes
        #12.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 7:36 PM EST
        Eric AlbertDeleted
        CharlieSeattleDeleted
        TBone

        >>Iraq did not attack the United States on 9/11, al-Qaeda did.

        Or, perhaps, the authors of that horror, as well as this video, were one in the same.

        • 2 votes
        #12.4 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 9:49 PM EST
        Jasonp162

        I guess my experiences in Iraq amounts to nothing but a "corporate-controlled" agenda, Askari, have you ever held a child dying from a suicide bombers results, I saw alot of good people just trying to take care of their families and survive day to day even though some crazed zelot wants to impose his skewed idea of what is really a peacful religion onto a population.  I don't agree with either Israel or Palastine, I believe there is always a better solution to a problem and we should work until we can reach it, but I am not Hamas, Al-Quada, Bader-Meinhoff gang or any other group that will see it just one way, theirs.

        • 2 votes
        Reply#13 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 7:43 PM EST
        JaRagga

        Jason, you are correct your experiences in Iraq mean nothing when discussing Israel and Gaza.  Israel and Gaza is not Iraq, it's an entirely different situation.  Iraq was not a hotbed for religious fundamentalism until we marched into it when we should have been focused on Afghanistan and capturing Bin Ladin.  Israel and Gaza's problems have existed in one way or the other for over 4,000 years.

        • 7 votes
        #13.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 7:55 PM EST
        Eric AlbertDeleted
        Jasonp162

        I am not here to incite any response that is confrontational, I am simply giving my personal point of view, Eric Albert, obviously deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime, I spent 20 years in the military ensuring that our troops abides by the Laws of Land Warfare, The Geneva and Hague Conventions, perhaps when you make a statement like that you should ensure you know the scope of what is going on and the legal definitions of the type of military operation, weapons and targets that are involved. Neither one of us knows the complete story of this particular event, just what we are shown.

        • 2 votes
        Reply#15 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 7:51 PM EST
        GodsGirl CI

        Jason,

        Thank you for your dedicated service, my freedom depends on it. As for Mr. Albert, ignore him, his unfortunate views are purely misguided hatespeech.

        Islam is the unifying religion for this part of the world, whether Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, or even Gaza.  The goal of Islam is a one-world Islamic state governed by Sharia law.  That includes tiny Israel and our own United States.  Their goal is our annhilation.  Not all Muslims are jihadists though.  Most are not - simply because they don't know what their religion demands.  Similarly most so-called Christians never read the Bible.

        Please take time to educate yourselves on this topic, our freedom and that of all the nations is at stake.

        Read the 5-part newsletter Muhammed and the Qur'an: A book of War or Peace? 

        • 1 vote
        #15.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 8:45 PM EST
        JaRagga

        GodsGirl CI have a link to that article?  I can't seem to find any with that specific name.

        • 3 votes
        #15.2 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 9:27 PM EST
        GodsGirl CI

        sorry - the link disappeared

        • 1 vote
        #15.3 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 10:41 PM EST
        KLconsiders

        GodsGirl..............right...................Eric knows more about the deepth of this political and historical conduct then your statement can communicate an understanding of what you saw in the footage.  Discuss it reasonably without calling names or go watch for the second coming. Leave the keyboard to those who have something more to say then "he's ugly" nah nah!

        • 7 votes
        #15.4 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 1:31 AM EST
        Sir. Thinkswaytoomuch

        I only made it through about 1:42.

        But holy @!$%#, man.

        • 12 votes
        Reply#16 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 7:58 PM EST
        jbdaad

        Pretty nasty Dennis! I might be wrong but I didn`t see any rocket launchers on any of them.

        • 7 votes
        Reply#17 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 8:14 PM EST
        JaRagga

        I did see alot of Hamas members and several AK's and RPG's.  Then again, Hamas doesn't have tanks, advanced aircraft, a navy, or a standing army to really speak of.

        Disproportionate is the word I would use.

        • 12 votes
        #17.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 8:21 PM EST
        gunsandreligion

        So, are the Israelis supposed to drop the weapons they have and downgrade before they go into battle? HA! How silly.

        • 1 vote
        #17.2 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 3:06 AM EST
        Wheel

        So, are the Israelis supposed to drop the weapons they have and downgrade before they go into battle?

        No, they're supposed to not deliberately target civilians and trying to maximize civilian deaths. Nothing silly, just stop killing innocents.

        • 8 votes
        #17.3 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 9:29 AM EST
        Writing Athena

        As I said above, CNN reports that the UN and Palestinian officials put the death toll in Gaza at 25% civilian casualties. It's obvious from those figures that Israel is targeting Hamas, not civilians. Perhaps Hamas will grow a pair and stop using their wives and children as human shields.

        • 1 vote
        #17.4 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 9:36 AM EST
        Wheel

        CNN! eh?

        the numbers I hear are that about 1/2 the deaths are Hamas, I think I'll take this with a grain of salt for now.

        • 5 votes
        #17.5 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 9:41 AM EST
        Writing Athena

        Yeah, CNN -- "the most trusted name in news."

        Interestingly, Fox is reporting similar numbers.

        At last check, MSNBC was still running pre-recorded sunday morning shows. "Wake up, people!"

        50% civilian casualties would be terribly high -- 25% is awfully high. Even so, unless you believe that 50% of all residents of Gaza are Hamas, then you will recognize that Israel is not targeting civilians.

        • 3 votes
        #17.6 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 9:43 AM EST
        jbdaad

        Israeli officer: I was right to shoot a 13-year-old girl

        An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza dismissed a warning from another soldier that she was a child by saying he would have killed her even if she was three years old.

        Hmmm...

        • 4 votes
        #17.7 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 9:55 AM EST
        KLconsiders

        http://icyn22ro.newsvine.com/_news/2009/01/03/2271005-people-and-the-land-the-story-of-a-people-under-occupation

        not targeting civilians my ass.

        • 6 votes
        #17.8 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 10:00 AM EST
        JaRagga

        You do realize that by Israeli methodology that any male of fighting age is not considered a civilian right?  Whether they are or not doesn't matter, they'll be counted as a militant and therefore a legitimate war casualty in the eyes of Israel and most of the world.  So if we assume that just 25% of the fighting age men who are dying are NOT Hamas then how would those civilian casualty numbers look?  I personally doubt if even the greater majority of the fighting age men are actually participating in the bloodshed but they were raised to hate and fear the Israeli's so the do put themselves in bad situations to see and cheer on the militants taking on Israel.  Then they are used as shields by , Hamas and they benefit from these mens deaths when they use it as propaganda.  Truth in the deaths of civilians will always be somewhere between where either side claims it to be. 

        Both sides are a$$es though and I really wish the international community had the balls to stand up to a nuclear armed Israel but that is where the rubber meets the road.  The world fears Israel with good reason because the world knows Israel will use their nuclear arsenal to defend themselves from a full blown invasion.  Make no mistake about that as why the world stands idly by.  Israel is quite capable of taking out everything around them if push came to shove and they'll do it if they feel the need.  I have no personal doubt about that.

        • 7 votes
        #17.9 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 10:44 AM EST
        Dennis P. McCannRestored

        I really wish the international community had the balls to stand up to a nuclear armed Israel but that is where the rubber meets the road.  The world fears Israel with good reason because the world knows Israel will use their nuclear arsenal to defend themselves from a full blown invasion.  Make no mistake about that as why the world stands idly by.

        That's a reason, but not the reason. The real reason? The US. If you mess with Israel, you're messing with the US, and everyone knows that. It's our support that allows Israel to do what they do.

        • 11 votes
        #17.10 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 10:49 AM EST
        jbdaad

        Israeli officer: I was right to shoot a 13-year-old girl

        In case anyone needs link to #17.7 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 9:55 AM EST

        • 4 votes
        #17.11 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 11:02 AM EST
        JaRagga

        Also a good point Dennis.

        • 5 votes
        #17.12 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 11:10 AM EST
        Jasonp162

        JaRagga- I believe that the problems in Iraq go back much further that Israels, there were these little groups called Assyrians, and Babylonians.  Eric, if I may , your right, like I stated before I don't believe what Israel is doing is the right course of action. As for Iraq, we did do something good as our Declaration of Independence states we should as long as we have the means, we freed a oppressed nation.  Millions did die but if we didn't put and end to a government that was willing to gas its own population, kidnap and simply make disappear in the desert would it have stopped? Where do you get the stats that we killed millions?  I spent 18 months during the invasion and I can honestly say I didn't even see a million people.  I am not a political expert so I won't pretend to know about the  "mass murder and our aid to Israeli militarism", but I do think that the U.N. or some world organization would have addressed that if it truly was the case.

          Reply#18 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 8:17 PM EST
          JaRagga

          Technically you're right in the grand scheme of things Jasonp162, the whole of the Middle East has experienced 4,000 years of violence.  However, when the Baath party took over Iraq secularism was the law of the land and while Saddam's rule was brutal there wasn't much religiously based fighting and in fact there wasn't any Islamic sharia law except in civil court until we invaded their country.

          Would you care to keep your comments in the right threads though so we're not all spread out and disconnected?

          • 5 votes
          #18.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 8:25 PM EST
          Eric AlbertDeleted
          Jasonp162

          Charlie Seattle- If you read my post correctly, I didn't say Iraq attacked us, I said "someone attacking our civilians". Regardless, I don't really care why we we there, all I know is I saw happy faces and proud people when they got to vote for the first time without fear, girls were allowed to get a education and women weren't treated like dirt.  I get the impression that I somehow wandered onto a very liberal media forum. 

            Reply#20 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 8:24 PM EST
            JaRagga

            Again, under Saddam women were not kept from getting educations Jasonp.  Women were very much encouraged in Saddam's Iraq to get educations and many a woman served high profile positions in government and business in Iraq. 

            In fact, after the first Gulf War the women of Iraq began to lose many of the freedoms and rights they held under Saddam's rule prior to that.  If you don't believe me here's a few links and I can provide many others if you need them.

            http://www.iraqinews.com/politics/iraqi-women-lost-rights-after-us-invasion.html?Itemid=126

            http://www.hrw.org/legacy/backgrounder/wrd/iraq-women.htm

            http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/15/AR2006121501744.html

            I believe you have Iraq confused with Taliban controlled Afghanistan.

            • 7 votes
            #20.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 8:47 PM EST
            Jasonp162

            Everyone on this forum sleep good tonight, men and women are in a far off land you've only seen on t.v. making sure you don't have to worry about rockets and bombs going off in your neighborhood while you sleep soundly.

            • 1 vote
            Reply#21 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 8:36 PM EST
            Askari

            Jason, our government's actions are exactly what puts us in danger of that happening.  I really wish you would shake off your military "conditioning" and investigate what's really going on in the world.  Most of all, I'm concerned that you said "I don't care why we're there."

            • 7 votes
            #21.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 11:31 PM EST
            monet-697127

            Jason,

            Perhaps if you exploring these sites, from the perspective of veterans like yourself, will help.

            http://ivaw.org/membersspeak

            http://www.veteransforpeace.org/

            • 2 votes
            #21.2 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 11:34 AM EST
            jaykay-796405Deleted
            Jasonp162

            Be careful,  jaykay- Facts will not be tolerated by some on this forum, remember a good liberal never lets the facts get in the way of their thinking.  I thank you for bringing out a very good point and setting some straight, to bad the media would dare print your post.

            • 4 votes
            Reply#23 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 8:46 PM EST
            JaRagga

            Please do post some facts to support you're claims Jasonp162.  Many will give a fair ear to them but please make sure you know what you're talking about.

            Jasonp-do you not know how to keep your posts attached to the comments you're responding too?

            • 5 votes
            #23.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 8:50 PM EST
            Karl_

            Jasonp162,

            The topic is the Israeli air strike and massacre in Gaza.

            Yet here you are congradulating jaykay who is claiming that there are no such people as Palestinians, while Israel is proceeding with the destruction of Palestine.  Meanwhile, jaykay is campaigning to erase traces of the very existence of Palestinians while they are still breathing.

            All in a day's work.  

            • 9 votes
            #23.2 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 9:14 PM EST
            Dennis P. McCannRestored

            Jasonp, please get on topic.

            First Iraq, now liberal bashing. Enough of that.

            • 10 votes
            #23.3 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 1:22 AM EST
            Jane WIlder

            that JK has been posting the same cut and paste poop for days--too bad it is so full of BS

            • 5 votes
            Reply#24 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 9:01 PM EST
            Karl_

            Yes. It is a Pavlovian thing I guess.

            • 6 votes
            #24.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 9:17 PM EST
            Redruby

            So, tell me, what is it that makes this carnage okay????  This is madness.

            • 9 votes
            Reply#25 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 9:17 PM EST
            JaRagga

            So, tell me, what is it that makes this carnage okay????  This is madness.

            Nothing but the leadership of both sides are gaining big political points while it goes on.  Only the common people suffer.

            • 9 votes
            #25.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 9:24 PM EST
            monet-697127

            It is not just the leadership benefiting from political points, but the various criminal war/security rackets as well.

            Think of all the weapons that will need replacing.

            Also, The finance/corporate cartel is also benefiting.  These rackets are probably the top profiteers.

            Financing the weapons systems with compound interest rooted in a debt-based monetary system with fiat dollars, reap huge profits.

            • 3 votes
            #25.2 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 11:52 AM EST
            JaRagga

            And the good people of the United States are really the ones footing the bill, how very kind of us.

            Let's stop sending Israel money for a year or two and see how much stomach they have for this battle.

            • 5 votes
            #25.3 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 12:49 PM EST
            KLconsiders

            how does Obama plan on explaining sending war money to Israel while Ameircans are becoming homeless, shelters fill up, soup kitchens mulitiply, unemployment benefits end, municipalities go broke, services dry up.................and Israel gets its millions in war dollars.

            • 5 votes
            #25.4 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 1:04 PM EST
            TBone

            Every tax paying American should be forced to watch that video.

            • 8 votes
            Reply#26 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 9:40 PM EST
            DonkeyRidder

            I pay taxes, I watched, and I watch the carnage wrought by the Islamic terrorists, like the World Trade Centers collapsing, people jumping from windows, hundreds crushed to death in the collapse, plane wreckage and body parts in fields, a burning government building.  I've watched the video of Islamists cutting the heads off of living people and having quite a fun time doing so, holding the head up as a trophy, then setting it on the back of the victim while again posing.

            If the tax paying Americans would watch the videos of the destruction and carnage the Islamists have caused and will continue to cause, they'd be cheering Israel and beeging for a tax increase to supply more weapons to Israel and our other allies willing to put a stop to the Islamic terrorism gangs.  We should be seeing the graphic videos of the 9/11 attacks every single day.  We should bee the suicide bomber carnage every day.  We should see the rocket attacks on Israel evry day.

            It is sickening to see any person take the side of Hamas and the other terrorists.  As sickening as seeing the children of Hamas used as shields and propaganda pawns.  Hamas cares no more for their own children than the do the Jews.

            • 1 vote
            #26.1 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 1:00 PM EST
            jdoyle

             I watch the carnage wrought by the Islamic terrorists, like the World Trade Centers collapsing, people jumping from windows, hundreds crushed to death in the collapse, plane wreckage and body parts in fields, a burning government building

            What does that have to do with the Palestinians?

            • 6 votes
            #26.2 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 1:02 PM EST
            KLconsiders

            Palestininans...................the people of Palestine.  there is a seed discussing your topic, which is Hamas.  No one is discussin that here in relation to the vid.

            Get it.

            • 3 votes
            #26.3 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 1:13 PM EST
            Dennis P. McCannRestored

            What does that have to do with the Palestinians?

            All those brown people look alike?

            • 4 votes
            #26.4 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 1:53 PM EST
            Raat ki Raani

            I could only stomach the first minute or so. Horrific. Inhuman. Barbaric.

            • 13 votes
            Reply#27 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 9:43 PM EST
            gunsandreligion

            Bombs dont explode into feather puffs. Not trying to be insensitive and nonchalant about the deaths of innocents but videos like these can be found all all sides of the isle in any war. I truly pray for peace and Gods grace to those people and Israel. Please read what I wrote below on being led by emotions and jumping to conclusions.

            • 3 votes
            #27.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 11:49 PM EST
            Jonathan D. Miller

            Very tragic, that innocent people are dying in this conflict. It wrenches my heart and my stomach to see such horrific violence.

            This doesn't change the fact that Hamas is the aggressor, firing their rockets into Israel and inflicting similar violence and terror on innocent Israeli civilians.

            War is a horrible, tragic thing. I can safely say that none of us here would blindly advocate it, but that does not mean that there are not times of dire need when war must be wrought. Just like Americans took up arms in WWII for the protection of its people, Israel is doing the same. The bombing in this footage pales in comparison to the horror of the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, yet very few reasonably-minded Americans would question that the United States did the right thing.

            • 4 votes
            Reply#28 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 10:23 PM EST
            Wheel

            Jonathan,

            Don't try to drape this massacre with the justifications for the WW. This is a land grab. Don't compare this slaughter of innocents to the attacks that ended an atrocious war against a hard fighting enemy, this is war on civilians. IT'S NOT THE SAME THING, so don't try to justify this as anything other than the massacre it really is.

            • 8 votes
            #28.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 10:34 PM EST
            Jonathan D. Miller

            Don't try to drape this massacre with the justifications for the WW.

            I'm merely making a comparison of the need for war under dire circumstances. The justification for the WW and this current conflict are different, but it is no land grab. Don't delude yourself.

            this is war on civilians

            You are correct. Hamas has for too long attacked innocent civilians in southern Israel. Their terrorism must end, and Israel is making sure of it. As tragic as the loss of life in Gaza is, it is important to note that it would not be happening if Hamas was not seeking Israel's destruction with such bloodthirsty fervor.

             The only end to the massacre is to end the culprits behind it, Hamas.

            • 4 votes
            #28.2 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 10:56 PM EST
            Smiling Jack

            You are correct. Hamas has for too long attacked innocent civilians in southern Israel. Their terrorism must end, and Israel is making sure of it. As tragic as the loss of life in Gaza is, it is important to note that it would not be happening if Hamas was not seeking Israel's destruction with such bloodthirsty fervor.

             The only end to the massacre is to end the culprits behind it, Hamas.

            So your telling me that this is going to end Hamas, is it?  I very much doubt that.  This has been going on for a very long time, and it will keep going on for a very long time.

            • 5 votes
            #28.3 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 11:15 PM EST
            Jonathan D. Miller

            So your telling me that this is going to end Hamas, is it?  I very much doubt that.  This has been going on for a very long time, and it will keep going on for a very long time.

            I don't know that this current conflict will end Hamas, but what I am saying is that this region will finally have peace once the terrorists (notably Hamas) are eliminated.

            • 3 votes
            #28.4 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 11:27 PM EST
            Smiling Jack

            I don't know that this current conflict will end Hamas, but what I am saying is that this region will finally have peace once the terrorists (notably Hamas) are eliminated.

            You don't know that this conflict will end Hamas?  You can be positive it won't.  The ugliness of their position is that the harder Israel hits them and the more people they kill, the more recruits they get.

            One of their major selling points for recruits in the gaza strip is in fact that Israel is opposed to them.

            • 4 votes
            #28.5 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 12:01 AM EST
            Raat ki Raani

            what I am saying is that this region will finally have peace once the terrorists (notably Hamas) are eliminated.

            Have I missed something? Hamas has been around about 20 years. The conflict has been running since Israel was founded and compounded by an illegal Israeli land grab in 1967. Hamas is a consequence of Israel showing it has no intentions of returning stolen land or treating all its citizens (including those in Occupied territories) equally. Instead continuing apartheid policies. Eliminating Hamas will achieve nothing for Israel - only worsen its fate.

            • 11 votes
            #28.6 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 6:39 AM EST
            monet-697127

            Jonathan,

            The war profiteers from the "civilized nations",  made money from both sides before and during WWII. 

            Perhaps if they did not help to build up Nazi Germany or have our military blockade Japan which was a  threat to our markets,  WWII could have been avoided. 

            Sadly, we will never know.

            Back to this topic, I could not watch it after only the 1st minute or so.   However, I do think it is important for people to see both sides of any situation. 

            Unfortunately, even if they see the Palestinian side, they don't understand who benefits.

            • 2 votes
            #28.7 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 12:08 PM EST
            tschreck

            if israel keeps up this behavior, they will find that the worlds fighters will stand against them.

            im saddened and embarrassed that they get their weapons and technology from us.

            i would not be suprised if film of events like this one provokes many people to join in the fight against the oppression in the gaza ghetto.

            • 11 votes
            Reply#29 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 10:35 PM EST
            gunsandreligion

            your emotions rule you in this matter.

              #29.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 11:45 PM EST
              JaRagga

              your emotions rule you in this matter.

              And your willful blindness rules you in this matter.

              • 5 votes
              #29.2 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 12:52 PM EST
              tschreck

              Jaragga

              dnftt

              • 3 votes
              #29.3 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 1:20 PM EST
              JaRagga

              got ya tschreck :)

              • 2 votes
              #29.4 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 3:48 PM EST
              masea2

              I don't know about most of you but much of this video was far too grainy for me to see any details and good thing at that.

              It is truly diabolical what modern weapons can do when they hit unprotected human flesh, I guess this would be the lesson from the video.  If you do not like to experience your flesh being burned and torn (same for your children and relatives) do not attack others with mortars and rockets and do not support fanatical terrorist killers who would use those rocket and mortars on your behalf.

              The rest of people on this post, why don’t you watch a video of plastic surgery and jail the surgeons.  Just because you see blood and gore does NOT make people who caused it criminals. 

              But I guess this post would be too "callous" for you who are seeking ANY reason to condemn Israel without looking too deep into what/who really caused the horrors depicted in this footage.

              • 2 votes
              Reply#30 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 10:42 PM EST
              Askari

              masea2, apparently YOU are the one that has not looked deep into what really caused the horrors as evidenced by your "callous" and ignorant post.  No one is "seeking any reason to condemn Israel."  Israel's actions speak loud and clear and SHOULD be condemned as should all the insane behavior that created this conflict.

              Perhaps you'd be more compassionate if someone cut you off from the rest of the world and placed you in a little parcel of land without access to clean water, employment, and food.  There are innocent people being killed and all you can do is offer  a smug and distorted commentary?

              • 9 votes
              #30.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 11:50 PM EST
              masea2

              Askari, I think you missed or ignored the point I made in my post.  It is not that I am indifferent to human suffering, six million of my people were butchered by Nazis, it is that we need to blame those who are responsible for this suffering. 

              IDF bombs were instrument ultimately brought onto Palestinian people by fanatical and cruel terrorist regime they, themselves put into place.  No Hamas, no bombing!  Not a single bomb was dropped on West Bank in the past 10 days.

                #30.2 - Sun Jan 4, 2009 6:17 PM EST
                jaykay-796405Deleted
                jaykay-796405Deleted
                Smiling Jack

                If you look to the side of the video, you will note that they include a link where you can obtain a free copy of this video, it's about 46 megs or so I think.

                Here's the link again.

                http://www.megaupload.com/?d=KP4E6Z5U

                • 5 votes
                Reply#33 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 11:35 PM EST
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